Tibur/Tivoli

[StephB]

Nach langer Pause melde ich mich wieder zurück mit meinem neuen Diorama. Ich war nicht aus Desinteresse so lange nicht mehr hier aktiv, sondern weil es mir praktisch unmöglich war, mich am Rechner einzuloggen. Inzwischen habe ich herausgefunden, dass es mit dem Tablet besser klappt, also denn!
Das Diorama zeigt eine Szene in der antiken Stadt Tibur, dem heutigen Tivoli, etwa 30 km östlich von Rom. Tibur hatte zwei Tempel, einen runden und einen rechteckigen. Es wird oft behauptet, dass der runde Tempel der Göttin Vesta gehörte und der andere der in Tibur ansässigen Prophetin, der Sybilla Tiburtina. Das ist aber Spekulation, niemand weiß wirklich, wem diese Tempel in der Antike geweiht waren.
Tibur/Tivoli mit seiner romantischen Landschaft, speziell den dramatischen Wasserfällen, war im 17. bis 19. Jahrhundert ein sehr beliebtes Motiv für Künstler. Der Ort ist dabei oft ziemlich phantasievoll dargestellt, und auch ich habe keine exakte Rekonstruktion der Topografie angestrebt, es ist eher eine Tivoli-Fantasie.
In meinem Fundus befanden sich seit vielen Jahren zwei halbwegs passende Modelle, die von Andreas Brune (damals Imperial Modellbau, heute Hagen Miniatures) gegossen wurden und offenbar nicht mehr erhältlich sind. Das und die vielen Tivoli-Bilder, die ich bei meinen Museumsbesuchen über die letzten Jahre gesehen habe, waren die Hauptgründe, dieses Projekt zu starten.
Hier kommen jetzt die Bilder:

sbytibur0016.jpg (215.82 KiB) 597 mal betrachtet

sbytibur0017.jpg (253.49 KiB) 597 mal betrachtet

sbytibur0022.jpg (224.9 KiB) 597 mal betrachtet

sbytibur0038.jpg (183.31 KiB) 597 mal betrachtet

sbytibur0046.jpg (186.18 KiB) 597 mal betrachtet

sbytibur0049.jpg (204.19 KiB) 597 mal betrachtet

sbytibur0053.jpg (279.65 KiB) 597 mal betrachtet

sbytibur0060.jpg (262.89 KiB) 597 mal betrachtet

[StephB]

Noch mehr Bilder, darunter zwei im Panoramaformat für einen Überblick über das ganze Diorama:

sbytiburpano0002.jpg (555.73 KiB) 596 mal betrachtet

sbytiburpano0001.jpg (468.89 KiB) 596 mal betrachtet

sbytibur0075.jpg (222.23 KiB) 596 mal betrachtet

sbytibur0066.jpg (210.08 KiB) 596 mal betrachtet

sbytibur0065.jpg (212.96 KiB) 596 mal betrachtet

sbytibur0063.jpg (229.15 KiB) 596 mal betrachtet

sbytibur0061.jpg (231.25 KiB) 596 mal betrachtet

sbytibur0078.jpg (225.77 KiB) 596 mal betrachtet

[Cryns]

Dear StephB,

I am happy to see your new work here, in very beautiful pictures.
Lovely vegetation and many many nice details. Lively, joyful and colorful.
And the dancing Phersu figures, always when I see them I get a nostalgic feeling, hoping he was still with us.

I like to discuss the Roman temple architecture design (if you allow me)
But let me start first with another compliment to you: the stone arches below the temple platform are made with love and understanding of Roman architecture.
And of course its great when somebody (Imperial Chief) produces and sells complete Roman buildings.
But again and again, in many other scale model temple examples of professionals and hobbyists too, I see some elements distorting 'that sense of typical Roman architecture'.

The first one is the angle of the roof and tri angled timpan. The roof is too steep, the timpan should look less like a piramid.
Probably this roof came in one piece so I understand it needs a lot of cutting and grinding to correct its shape, risking to break the roof surface.

The second one is the use of only 2 or 3 collumns instead of the minimal 4 on the front (and backside) of any Roman temple.
A row of only 3 collumns makes no sense. It does not fit the esthetics of Greek and Roman architecture. And a central collumn (in case of only 3 of them) would also block the central doorway.
The square temple you used here lacks two collumns in front and one in the back in my opinion.
I wonder if you considered solving this during the building of your diorama.
Its like you were reluctant to intervene with the original building design. Which is understandable too: Showing respect to a model, for example because the model is 'vintage' an should be charished as it was designed a long time ago, can be a reason not to change it.

Considering that, in my opinion at least 3 more collumns should have been added to this temple. It is not difficult to reproduce them by using blue stuff mold bars to mold a single collumn in hot water and cast them using dentist gypsum, clay or greenstuff putty.

[stenfalk]

Vor den Hintergrundbildern sieht man sehr schön, wie trefflich Dir die Wiedergabe der Landschaft, in die sich die Szenerie einbettet, gelungen ist. Das passt wie die Faust aufs Auge, vollkommen harmonisch und lieblich.

[StephB]

Dear Cryns,
thank you for your comment. I will reply with a few notes on the temple models I have used in this diorama, in particular the rectangular one.
Over the years I have collected a number of various figures, models etc. to get a reasonably comprehensive collection that depicts the Roman world, including several of their neighbors, enemies, or allies. And I also had the idea of supporting our hobby, especially some of those smaller one-man companies. So I bought a range of items, some being excellent, others just acceptable. There are limits, of course, and I e.g. don’t have a single set by companies such as Odemars, if you know what I mean.
For the rectangular temple model, it is obvious that there are several flaws, and for this reason, I did not build it or use it in a diorama for perhaps 15 years or more. But meanwhile my collection has reached a level of saturation and I think it’s time to use some of that accumulated stuff.
The pictures of the original design will demonstrate the issues:

sbytiburwip0012.jpg (104.42 KiB) 346 mal betrachtet

sbytiburwip0013.jpg (98.94 KiB) 346 mal betrachtet

1. The roof is a bit steep, but this is not the most serious problem, as there was no fixed or universal angle for the tympanum.
2. In addition, I did not like the surface, because it looked more like modern rooftiles rather than an ancient construction.
3. The roof was sitting directly on the columns, without frieze/architrave – this is absolutely impossible.
4. Only three columns in a row on the narrow side is equally impossible, there is no room for discussions. So I have of course considered changing this, but discarded the idea: Each column has a socket on the podium, and moving/adding columns would mean to add new sockets and fill in the existing ones; I strongly doubt that this would yield a clean result.
Another problem are the intercolumnia, the distances between the columns, which should be equal on all sides. With those three columns they are too wide, but with four they would be too narrow – there is no elegant way to fix this.
5. The open cella also does not look “right”, although in principle such temples did exist. So I decided to add a front wall.
6. The masonry of the podium is not convincing either, the irregular structure might be adequate for an archaic building, but not for a temple oriented to classical standards like this one.
7. The columns are straight cylinders, which is incorrect. They should show an “entasis”, the slightly convex curvature of columns in the Ionian or Corinthian order.

All in all, it seems that the only way to correct ALL these problems would be … to discard the model altogether and build a completely different temple. I decided against this option and chose to address some of the flaws, but to maintain the integrity of the model as a whole.

[StephB]

Vor den Hintergrundbildern sieht man sehr schön, wie trefflich Dir die Wiedergabe der Landschaft, in die sich die Szenerie einbettet, gelungen ist. Das passt wie die Faust aufs Auge, vollkommen harmonisch und lieblich.

Vielen Dank!
Ich hätte eigentlich gerne authentische Hintergrundbilder aus der Gegend um Tivoli verwendet, es gibt etliche dazu im Internet und ich habe sogar eigene Urlaubsfotos von dort. Das sah aber alles nicht gut aus, z.B. zu viel moderne Bebauung an den Hängen usw. Also bin ich schließlich bei Sardinienbildern aus meinem Fundus gelandet (ist immerhin auch Italien) - und welchen vom Coconino National Forest in Arizona...

[stenfalk]

Also bin ich schließlich bei Sardinienbildern aus meinem Fundus gelandet (ist immerhin auch Italien) - und welchen vom Coconino National Forest in Arizona...

Tja, da fragt man sich heutzutage, ob Gott, als er die Erde schuf, einfach nicht mehr wusste, was er wo schon kreiert hatte oder ob er sich selbst frech plagiierte, wenn er Italien in Arizona oder aber Arizona in Italien nochmal verwendet hat.

Deinen Tempeln bieten offenbar mehrere Landschaften den geeigneten Rahmen, der konditionierte Geist macht ja automatisch immer den mediterranen Raum daraus...

[Cryns]

Dear StephB,

My thanks for your explaination and my admiration for your excellent analysis.
Good you show those pictures of the original resin buildings.

Over the years I have collected a number of various figures, models etc. to get a reasonably comprehensive collection that depicts the Roman world. And I also had the idea of supporting our hobby, especially some of those smaller one-man companies. So I bought a range of items, some being excellent, others just acceptable.

That is very admirable of you.

There are limits, of course, and I e.g. don’t have a single set by companies such as Odemars, if you know what I mean.

Very recognizable. As the thorough, obsessive collector that I once was, I bought the ancient Odemars sets anyhow, coming to realize later that only few of those figures matched the other figure brands. I only painted and based few of them. You came right away to that conclusion.

3. The roof was sitting directly on the columns, without frieze/architrave – this is absolutely impossible.

Both original scalemodel temples are possibly inspired by the incomplete, re-erected Vesta temple in Rome of which both architrave and frieze have been lost. Though the circular scale temple does have at least the architrave.

Vesta Temple Rome.png (460.61 KiB) 305 mal betrachtet

7. The columns are straight cylinders, which is incorrect. They should show an “entasis”, the slightly convex curvature of columns in the Ionian or Corinthian order.

Oh yes absolutely I did not even notice that. Its one of the flaws in most temple models: the convex shape is fully ignored by the designer.
But now look at the Vesta temple again: it looks like these columns are straigth cylinders too, again explaining the scale model makers choice, and at the same time to keep the model as simple as possible. But in fact I think these original columns have been worn out over the centuries at the bottom much more than they have at the top, so that today they look straight.

I agree with all your other points too, you see it even more clear than I do.

Only now I realize you made that grill on top of the entrance yourself. Very nice detail. And the blue painted decorative strips replacing frieze and fronton.
And I forgot to tell you, you succeeded very well by choosing and using your background pictures.

[StephB]

Deinen Tempeln bieten offenbar mehrere Landschaften den geeigneten Rahmen, der konditionierte Geist macht ja automatisch immer den mediterranen Raum daraus...

Ja, ich denke, so funktioniert der Trick. Die Landschaft muss nicht exakt übereinstimmen (und oft finde ich es unmöglich, exakt passende Bilder zu beschaffen), sie muss nur irgendwie stimmig wirken.

[StephB]

Both original scalemodel temples are possibly inspired by the incomplete, re-erected Vesta temple in Rome of which both architrave and frieze have been lost.

Dear Cryns,
yes, I agree, that temple may be deceptive, because it gives an incorrect impression of ancient architecture (it was dedicated to Hercules, not Vesta, by the way). It has been used as a church during medieval times and later on. Therefore, on one hand, this is good because for this reason it has survived in a rather complete state (like some other temples in the city of Rome, too). But, to be honest, the present state with that low roof is so ugly and un-Roman that it hurts to look at the building…

And yes, the columns at that temple look quite eroded, and together with the fact that Corinthian columns are always slender from the start, can give the wrong impression of a cylindrical column. If one takes a close look, the curvature is still detecable, here is another picture:


(See https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... l_2019.jpg for the full-size picture)

But I am afraid that most producers of ancient architecture models are not deceived by wrong templates, they are just too lazy to create correct columns, because it is so much easier to produce a simple rod…