Tyros 332 BC

Egbert
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Re: Tyros 332 BC

Beitrag von Egbert » Sa 4. Sep 2021, 10:20

They are sooo wonderful.
Respekt Cryns... full of dynamic and incredibly many different postures!
LG Egbert
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Cryns
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Re: Tyros 332 BC

Beitrag von Cryns » Sa 2. Okt 2021, 12:59

Dear Chris, Dirk, Wolle and Egbert, thank you so much for your beautiful words.

I have started constructing an Ancient Greek Merchant Galley from 500 BC.
The inspiration comes from a rarely published vase painting which is more or less approved by recent Black Sea underwater findings showing a similar type of ship:
Black Sea Shipwreck.png
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Merchant Galley 1 original vase painting.png
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Merchant Galley 2 adjusted vase painting.png
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Merchant Galley 3 sketch and framebuilding.jpg
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Merchant Galley 4 frame, base, prow and sternpiece.jpg
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Merchant Galley 5 frame and keel.jpg
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Merchant Galley 6 prow top.jpg
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Merchant Galley 7 prow umder.jpg
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Egbert
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Re: Tyros 332 BC

Beitrag von Egbert » So 3. Okt 2021, 08:50

Dear Cryns,
it is always a pleasure when you show us how you build your wonderful ships!
I'm already looking forward how it will continue!
LG Egbert
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Frankzett
Beiträge: 208
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Re: Tyros 332 BC

Beitrag von Frankzett » So 3. Okt 2021, 11:20

I also find Your Sailors shouldn't be unemployed.
Nice to see your work is going further with ancient boats.
The render-picture gives a disadvantageous perspective. I see the planks from the stern to the midship with the mast then the panks are curved to the ship bow. The ship bow dissapear behind thecurved planks of the midship.

My interpretation is almost the same like Yours, but I think the model must be some bulkheads longer. I draw the bulkheads red and the beam of the mast section blue on the render photo. If we see the vase painting we can see seven rows. Two rows before the mast, five behind the mast. So my interpretation is to make at least two bulkheads more. And we can assume, because if there were an auxiliar rowing crew of 10-14 (i.e. the half rowing crew of a triacontor type), the rows gave an influence with the hull layout; also we have better flow conditions with stretched hulls but o.k. on the other hand there must be more preference on sturdiness with the loss of speed with a merchant. So I think the length is also a kind of interpretation. Well I tend to a longer hull.

Greetings
Frank
Dateianhänge
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Wolfgang
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Re: Tyros 332 BC

Beitrag von Wolfgang » Mo 4. Okt 2021, 08:51

Sehr schöne Recherche und Umsetzung! Ich verstehe zu wenig vom Schiff-Modellbau und kann nicht sagen ob deine oder Franks Theorie richtig ist.
Ich finde aber deine Version sieht sehr stimmig aus!
Liebe Grüße, Wolle

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dirk
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Re: Tyros 332 BC

Beitrag von dirk » Di 5. Okt 2021, 19:16

Recht interessante Herangehensweise, um ein Schiff nachzubauen !

Cryns
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Re: Tyros 332 BC

Beitrag von Cryns » Sa 9. Okt 2021, 14:54

Hello dear gentlemen, thanks for the feedback.

Frankzett thank you so much for your input. I appreceate that very much.
In fact I do agree with all you are saying here but there are still many questions left.
First of all I would like to know if and where you have found extended and scientific information about this Black Sea Shipfind, because I can not find much apart from a few images, some short video's and very limited text reports.

Apart from that I did not pay enough attention to the number of oars. Which I should have done. So I agree with you the ship should be longer anyhow.
My original idea was to make a simplified smaller version of the ship as depicted on that vase painting with only 6 instead of 7 oars.
I decided to simplify it to keep the ship short, make reproduction easyer and manning all oars with rowers cheaper for the customer and myself.
But I agree with you already that, in my sketch, my shipdesign looks too short, like it has been shrinked like the ships visible on the vasepaintings.

Merchant Galley 1 original vase painting.png
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I did consider the number of seven oars visible in the vase painting to be of more importance than the number of five rowers of which two men sit the wrong way and so they must represent passengers instead of rowers.

In the press, reporting about the Black Sea Shipwrecks, it is said this wreck was a merchant galley because of its length, its rowingbanks and the merchant cargo found inside. But then its compared every time to another much more famous vase painting of a ship which looks like a simplification of a war galley to me, depicting Odysseus and the Cyrenes:

Odyssey Ship.jpeg
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The fascinating thing is this ship has 7 oarholes too (though only 6 oars and 4 rowers)
This returning number of 7 rowing bank indications only approves your idea of 7 or even more banks.

All the press articles explaining about the black sea wreck show us the Odyssee ship instead of the merchantgalley on the other vasepainting. But the main difference between both ships is that Odyssee ship has a ram in front, plus the typical fencing at the prow, making this, in my opinion, a shortened representation of a monoreme warship (like a penteconter) from the 6th century BC. And not a merchant galley.

Comes my question: why would a painter depict a ship with such few oars but with a ram?

Here is a better point of view on the same black sea wreck:

Black sea wreck whole kopie 2.png
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First of all what do you think is the keel? At first sight it looks like its the blue line. But there is the green line too, being in line with the backcurve of the ship. If green is the keel, then blue must be a hull plank getting loosened from the rest of the hull. Or its a some kind of dollboard or gunwale that came of and dropped down just beside the keel.

My main problem is: when blue is the keel, the ships hull is too low and shallow to be sea worthy. Or did several rows of planking on top of the hull disappear?
What do you say?

Black sea wreck whole kopie.png
Black sea wreck whole kopie.png (475.8 KiB) 598 mal betrachtet

Is what looks like the dollboard/gunwale in the image really the highest plank of the hull top?
And if yes, do you think those five planks (red arrows) between stern and mast are rowing banks?
And what are those two small pins on top of the dollboard? (yellow arrows) Could these be dollpins?

stenfalk
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Re: Tyros 332 BC

Beitrag von stenfalk » So 10. Okt 2021, 15:39

Black sea wreck whole kopie.png
Black sea wreck whole kopie.png (389.82 KiB) 559 mal betrachtet

After taking a closer look at the last two photos, I would also like to take part in the brainstorming.

My lines are drawn in dark red; In my opinion, the ones on the side of the boat facing us show the area up to which the hull has sunk in the mud, the rear ones on the other hand the upper opposite drop side, depressed amidships, either when it hits the seabed, but possibly also later due to the pressure the incline on the gradually rotting planking.

If one looks at the course of the rear line, one must conclude that neither your green nor your blue line depict the course of the keel, but must be (prominent maybe?) plank layers. The keel would then be much lower, hidden in the mud and not visible in this photos. The plank parts, which in the foreground look like the upper edge of the ship's side, could in fact be the side of the ship, but in comparison with the curve of the rear side wall, it cannot be ruled out that the entire side wall or at least the part over the blue line of it collapsed also inward into the fuselage are. The area where your red arrows begin looks as if the wood used there is different (more?) crumbled than the curved sections, which could support my theory.

Last but not least: The mast is no longer straight, it's inclined to the opposite side, but has not broken off completely.

I am sure that I could contribute to the general uncertainty now, but I think that my findings are not unjustified to consider them.
Beste Grüße,

Bild

www.stenfalk.de

Frankzett
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Re: Tyros 332 BC

Beitrag von Frankzett » Mi 13. Okt 2021, 12:35

Well Cryns I have to admit, it is my interpretation of this only picture You posted. And yes the perspective is inconvenient. But o.k. I think my projection of the black figured ship is "somehow working" with the black figured painting.

The thing with the seven rowers may be an artistic approach -
1. to use the space of the painting ground of the vases which allows only the drawing of short hulls,
2. to have an estethic effect of an odd number of holes
But it is obvious so see often seven holes, it also may be it is a logistic feature to have the half of rowers of a triacontor (30 rowers).

I think Your blue line looks like a robust wale, for protecting the planks when hauling the boat for maintenence. I assume the green line is the keel.
For me the yellow pins (yellow arrows) looking like tenons for the lost planking - may be.

To be honest, I have no idea what's about the boards, laying cross the plank (red arrows). i think it is looking like a colapsed structure...

Greetings
Frank

Cryns
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Re: Tyros 332 BC

Beitrag von Cryns » Di 26. Okt 2021, 12:14

Dear Stenfalk and Frankzett, thanks for your input and feedback.
stenfalk hat geschrieben:
So 10. Okt 2021, 15:39
I would also like to take part in the brainstorming
You are very welcome.
Frankzett hat geschrieben:
Mi 13. Okt 2021, 12:35
to have an estethic effect of an odd number of holes
I love your knowledge of history&arts and I will use your suggestions.

During the last weeks I did a lot of research on this shipwreck which turned out to be from the early 4th century BC.

Facebook shows an 360 degree animation made of underwaterphotographs:

https://m.facebook.com/watch/?v=727318994371274&_rdr


Youtube shows a similar video with wooden shipwrecks from Greek, Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman period:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMlR71Sv3Ec

Professor Jon Adams from the Black Sea Maritime Archaeology Project (M.A.P.) who also recovered the shipwreck of the Mary Rose in the 1980's had a 3D model of the Greek shipwreck printed:
Jon Adams.jpg
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Here is a digital image with depth and hight coloring made by his team:
Topview.png
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This brings me to Stenfalks idea's again:
stenfalk hat geschrieben:
So 10. Okt 2021, 15:39
My lines are drawn in dark red; In my opinion, the ones on the side of the boat facing us show the area up to which the hull has sunk in the mud, the rear ones on the other hand the upper opposite drop side, depressed amidships, either when it hits the seabed, but possibly also later due to the pressure the incline on the gradually rotting planking.
A very good idea. Descriptions of the M.A.P. explain the ship is laying on its side, half buried in mud. This can be seen best here:
Stern txt.jpg
Stern txt.jpg (37.96 KiB) 372 mal betrachtet
stenfalk hat geschrieben:
So 10. Okt 2021, 15:39
The area where your red arrows begin looks as if the wood used there is different (more?) crumbled than the curved sections
The anamorphic looking hull planks are in fact covered by heavy layers of maritime sediment. So what we see is not the wood but dust. The M.A.P. team used an underwater vacuumcleaner to remove this sediment from the wood. It can be seen in the documentary Ghosts of the Deep: Black Sea Shipwrecks at 1:15:00 near the end of the movie:

https://lmplayer.xyz/m/play/1/9820602-g ... cks-2019/s

For me, most surprising is the mast. It looks like its tripple beamed.
triple beamed mast.png
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Do these two small supporting beams keep the mast from bending or breaking sidewards?
Does this explain why in Greek Art sailingships are often depicted without shrouds (keeping the mast in place from both board sides?) buth with many other rigging cables clearly depicted like the forestay keeping the mast from falling backwards?

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